Episode 004 - Part 1
In this two-parter we chat with Frank Galli, founder of Snipershide.com and an incredible long range shooter and instructor.
Frank covers the following for us in this segment:
- His early career and founding snipershide.com in 2000
- How PRS style matches were pioneered by Frank and his colleagues and PRS itself was fleshed out and founded on the snipershide website
- Weaponized math - Frank's own methodology, super interesting and totally innovative
- How to properly true your ballistic calculator and the BIGGEST MISTAKE people make when they buy new gear.
- What is essential gear for long range, and how to choose from the insane amount of gear out there.
Check out Frank at snipershide.com and on Instagram @shlowlight
Frank Galli: Welcome to the Tier one podcast. Bringing you interviews with the brightest minds in the shooting industry. Get unique insights to help you shoot better, survive longer, and outperform your competition brought to you by Tier one, the world's best shooting accessories.
Harry: Hello, everyone. Welcome back. Thanks for joining us on episode four of the Tier one podcast. We've had a little bit of a break. Apologies for that. A bit of a long wait for this one, but it's going to be absolutely worth it because this episode we have the master of long range shooting, Frank Galli. Frank is the founder of snipershide.com, which many of you will have heard of. You may even be active on there. And actually, Frank so generous with his time. We've had to split this one into two podcasts. It's almost, yes, just over 2 hours worth of recording. So in this first in part one, we've got an hour here and we cover a few really cool points with Frank, including his story. So how he got started with in his military service and the snipershide.com in 2000, how he developed early style shooting competitions as well, and how PRS actually was fully fleshed out and developed on snipers hired dotcom, which is a cool bit of history if you're into that. He also covers weaponized math. If you don't know much about that, stay tuned because it's pretty amazing stuff. Also, how to properly true your ballistic calculator. And crucially, I think everyone can benefit from this one. The biggest mistake that people make when they buy new gear. So quite a crucial one. I think we've all done it. Also, finally, we round out with what's essential gear for long range and how do you choose from the insane amount of stuff out there? So this episode is packed full of useful tips and tricks, and Frank is a really cool guy, so definitely worth tuning in and listening to this one. And don't forget, in the next couple of weeks we'll have part two as well, finishing off this this podcast. So that's enough for me. Enjoy the rest of the podcast. Enjoy tips and tricks from the master of long range shooting. Frank Galli.
Frank Galli: Hi, everybody. Listening to the podcast, you got Frank Galli from Snipers Hide. Many of you guys know me as low light out there. I've been low light for a long time. Run the website do training in and to give you a little background on me I was a marine scout sniper, enlisted in the Marine Corps when I was 17 and then went to boot camp, did all that, went to infantry training school and through there they kind of wanted me to go to the recon side of things. Went over through some of the recon stuff and then didn't get along is a nice way of putting it. With one of the lieutenants there I had I had a lieutenant that him and I butted heads and so I went over to the grunts to the line unit. So one, two. And it was right. It was the, the right before they were reopening the Statue of Liberty, we had our Statue of Liberty under construction for years.
Frank Galli: And Reagan was going to reopen it. So they needed Marines to go up there as part of the International Naval Review. They had tall ships. I remember there was a tall ship from Spain right next to us. And, you know, they basically have the water parade go by. And then the new Statue of Liberty was unveiled after the repairs. Well, during that trip, I got picked to go to that trip. There was two snipers there. And I had said, hey, listen, I had gone to recon, this is what happened, but I'm in the line unit now and I want to go to a state platoon to be a sniper. And they were like, Yep, cool, man. We want a guy with a recon background. That's great. So that was July four, the 4th of July, and I was a PFC at the time, which, you know, no rank at all really just got in. And then we went to Bridgeport, California, for our mountain warfare training. And then right after that was October was to start a sniper school for the next class. And I was a student. So they they kept their word. They they let me go to sniper school. And, you know, I actually my teammate, who was a corporal from the unit, failed out, but I passed and graduated. And yeah, all of this is happening with the background of the Iran-Iraq war going on.
Frank Galli: And so we're getting ready to kind of ramp up in that area. And they created the first Marine Corps special operations capable unit. And so the training was all changing. Prior to that, we were all doing Vietnam. World War Two doctrine. And so now they said, hey, the Marines are going to be a little bit more special operations oriented, and this was going to happen in conjunction with this float. So I go over to the Med, I do a Med float, and that's when the Iranians start getting a little froggy in in the Gulf and they mine the Straits of Hormuz. So they grab a bunch of us. They create a mag half, which is a marine air ground task force of 40, 40 brown Marines. And then like another hornet for the air crew. And they put us on a ship and they send us back over. And now we kind of get engaged in the Iran-Iraq war under what they considered an operation praying mantis or not. That was a praying mantis. That was earnest will. Sorry. Getting reversed. So I'm doing earnest. Well. And one of our ships hit a mine.
Harry: Right. Wow.
Frank Galli: So, yeah. So the USS Roberts hit a mine, and we go and retaliate against the Iranians. So in the eighties, I was able to get combat action and do some stuff, which, you know, it was a little unique in the U.S. I mean, certain Special Forces people were going out and doing small missions, you know, but as far as big military, not as much. And so that kind of laid the groundwork for me to be involved in that type of operations. Early on, I get out, get out of the military and I'm doing private investigation work, a lot of workers comp, insurance fraud, things like that in the New York area where I live.
Frank Galli: And so I was actually a licensed New York private investigator. And so really the New.
Harry: York originally.
Frank Galli: Connecticut, but right on the border. If you turned out my driveway, you would be in New York. If you went left, you went right. You were in Connecticut. So they recruited me because they had a a job that nobody can get near anybody. They had three people who were in doing insurance fraud against Amtrak. The train. The train system.
Frank Galli: And it was millions of dollars in these three guys were working together but lived in rural areas. One lived upstate New York, one lived by Amish country in Pennsylvania, and then another was Mobile. He drove around and did he did like flea markets. Very weird stuff. Yeah, but he lived in his car mostly. Wow. So the guys that lived in the in the rural areas, nobody can get near them because whenever a vehicle showed up to surveil them to see what he was doing, he would catch them.
Frank Galli: So, yeah. So a friend of mine said, hey, you're a marine sniper, you got a ghillie suit still. Can you go sneak into this guy's front yard, right, and film him working on his house? And I said, Yeah, sure, I could do that. So of course I did it. That all worked out. And not too long after that, I started the sniper's hide website. That was in 2000. So I had just gotten divorced and said, okay, what do I do now? You know, I'm like, Well, we were chatting. There was people there's actually people on snipers hide right now who were there that day. Wow. And we used a website at the time that kept crashing. And you'd get ten people on. It would be okay as soon as you got 12, the site crashed.
Frank Galli: And so we complained and somebody said, well, we ought to do something. So I made snipers hide and created my own site.
Frank Galli: Fill in the blanks. And then when snipers hide got really popular. I got recruited from Jacob Bynum out of rifles. Only he he used down in Texas and had a training facility. And now 911 just happened. The wars are going on. Matter of fact, my current girl, I left during that or I met during that time. We've been together since then. And, you know, so he came up to Connecticut and he said, hey, you need to come to Texas. You need to move your website from the Internet to real life and do things with us down here. Because Jacob was known for hosting pretty much the only competitions in the US. There was like two or three tiny ones. But Jacobs was known as a bigger sort of tactical competition. Precursor to pitchers today.
Harry: Yeah. Okay.
Frank Galli: And so I went down there, shot a competition. And, you know, at the time, as the wars are ramping up, the contracting started. Yeah. The military's looking for outside instructors because, again, the incestuous training from Vietnam was still happening.
Frank Galli: And so, you know, Jacob was a big fundamentalist guy, started it was called rifles only because he worked with the Safari Club.
Harry: Okay. Yeah.
Frank Galli: He did a lot of ammo and a lot of work for guys that went on big game safaris.
Frank Galli: His his dad. It's funny. The first time I met his dad, he had just come back from Africa and lost two rifles in Amsterdam because they had they went from Africa to Amsterdam, got off the plane in Amsterdam to spend a couple of days and had their rifles with them. Hmm. And so the government took their rifles because they didn't. Oh, yeah, it was.
Frank Galli: It was. It was like $50,000 in two rifles.
Harry: Oh, my God.
Frank Galli: So this was the kind of money the safari people were spending.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Right back then as well.
Frank Galli: That's right. Right. So that's how Rifles only got started, was through that kind of safari type of deal. Well, to to kind of go back with you guys and and it's kind of a Jacob story and not a frank story. Yeah, but there's a connection. When Jacob was on a big game hunt, he was in New Zealand hunting tar.
Harry: Oh, yeah.
Frank Galli: And he was shooting something. I forget. I don't. I don't want to say it's a wallaby, but something similar to, like, a nuisance animal.
Harry: Okay. Yeah.
Frank Galli: And he was shooting them at, like 1500 meters with a 300 wind mag on I, in fact.
Frank Galli: And it caught the attention of some Australian SAS people. Who happened to be over there, who said, hey, we're getting ready to do a 338 program, you should come over because we haven't seen somebody just, you know, knocking off animals at 1500 at like this.
Harry: Like it's nothing.
Frank Galli: Yeah, right. Right. And Jacob is just knocking them down like it was going out of style. And that's what created the military side of rifles only was work through the Australian SAS.
Harry: Okay, that's.
Frank Galli: Interesting. Yeah. And then those guys used to be up in Texas all the time and I met quite a few of them that used to come and work and not necessarily work there. But they did, but they hung out there. And because that was their point of contact in the US when they came in to the US for their other training that was going on.
Harry: Was it Texas?
Frank Galli: Yes. Yes. And so that brought me down there and that got me working full time as a precision rifle instructor.
Frank Galli: So that's kind of the background from there. And I know it's a long story, but.
Harry: No, it's good. It's a good it's a very interesting story, actually. It's it's all over the world as well.
Frank Galli: It really does because we do travel around quite a bit. But so I'm down there working and doing that and we start creating the competitions around our training. So we look that competition at the time to validate training. So we would do a couple of weeks with military classes, then we do a few civilian classes and then twice a year we did big competitions, right? And we would take the after action reports from the military guys.
Frank Galli: So they said, yeah, and turn it into a stage. So we'd say, okay, this guy, you know, had a run up to a knee wall. He had to rest his rifle, you know, with no bags and no stuff at the time. And from the kneeling, he had to shoot and neutralize a target at 800 yards there. And and we would design it around that. And like, in fact, I have I don't know if any of your listeners have ever heard, but they can go. Look, there's a US Ranger who's written books called Nick Irving. He writes The Reaper, three books.
Frank Galli: Nick was a student. I have like his mission notes from those 33 missions.
Frank Galli: Yeah, right here on my desk. And we did is we created match stages based on these mission notes.
Frank Galli: And that's how this worked and.
Harry: What? When was this like? What kind of era?
Frank Galli: 2003. It started. And then the. The high point was around 2007. 2008?
Frank Galli: And then I left rifles only in 2011.
Frank Galli: And press started in 2012.
Harry: I'm going to say this is very it sounds very pricey. You know, it's like you guys were doing it first.
Frank Galli: Oh, big time. Well before the press came from what we did, because they started it based on the rifles only events.
Frank Galli: And it actually started on sniper's hide. I've created sort of this adversarial relationship with them.
Frank Galli: But because I don't like kind of how it developed in a way. But basically they started the whole thing on sniper's hide.
Harry: Really? They started presence on site inside.
Frank Galli: Oh, yeah. It was all flushed out. It was all discussed. It was all worked on. Because our match is here is the problem. We have 75 people in a match. Yeah, well, we would say your match is going to, you know, registration opens on Saturday morning at 10 a.m.. At 1002, it was sold out.
Harry: Wow. Okay.
Frank Galli: And so you really had to either come to a class or know us to get into the match, because what people didn't realize is we had sort of a pre-registration list.
Frank Galli: And so you really that 10:00.
Harry: AM Rich list.
Frank Galli: Yeah. It was really only like 410 people.
Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Frank Galli: Because we had 65 names of people we wanted to shoot with already. It was more an invite thing, but it wasn't publicly announced as being invite.
Frank Galli: We would say, Hey, we like Harry, man. We want to shoot with Harry. Harry's going to come to the match. And if here, you know, if you say, Hey, man, you would call me up and say, Hey, I really want to get into your match. Hey, dude, you're in. I like you. You're good.
Frank Galli: And I put your name down.
Harry: Yeah. And and then pre-filled.
Frank Galli: Well. Well, then I tell you, go register anyway.
Frank Galli: But then we go look down the list and go. Okay. Harry. Yep. He registered. He's good. He's on the he's on the guest list, you know. And I mean we've had guys from the UK, I still have, we've had about four guys used to shoot our matches from the UK. One of them is a British Airways pilot and yeah, it comes over him and I have lunch, dinner, breakfast because he stops in Denver about every three months.
Frank Galli: And you know, we still get together but.
Harry: Voice work if you can get it. Hey, that's. Yeah, yeah, that's not bad.
Frank Galli: No, no. But the matches were like, we wanted you to answer a question. Basically, it was to validate your training. Were you fundamentally secure and doing the barricades and barricades were shot very different back then. A barricade today like the skill stage is, is kneeling, standing, standing, kneeling.
Frank Galli: Right. That's the skill stage. Well, we used to do, like three shots sitting. Three shot kneeling. Three shot standing. And then we would go to a prone, but we would change the time limits up smaller, different targets. But it was sitting, kneeling and standing because that three step barricade is designed to replicate a supported shot, a wall, an obstacle. Anything that you might come in contact with?
Frank Galli: If it's a short wall, well, then you practice your sitting. It's a little taller wall when then kneeling to get over the obstacle. The wall's taller. Then you go standing.
Frank Galli: So we were testing all three. Of those elements with a barricade, you know, and we used to do paper shoot and CS on paper with them more, more so than, than steel. And that way there, we kind of wanted you to kind of get inside that three inch shooting sea.
Frank Galli: You know, from that yard or we are usually like 150 until they made them permanent. But then they went permanent at about 100, 110 yards. But that was the the idea was so you could practice those stages. I mean, we used to do stages where you shot off the barrel. You know, we would put a chain link fence or a barbed wire and say the barrel has to go through. And you'd rest in everybody who came to a rifles only or sniper's hide match knew what their offset was if you rested your barrel on something. All right. You know. So, I mean, we used to do a whole lot of more practical.
Harry: It's clearly all inspired. So it's clearly all quite heavily inspired by like military experience, right? Like it's stuff that like firing positions that you would really have to use in a combat environment. Yes says that's what it sounds like to me.
Frank Galli: It was because we were dealing with for, you know, three weeks on and then one week off there. We were dealing with military guys all the time and all the higher end units, you know, so we would see how are they operating? How are they? Because we don't we never teach, you know, tactics. We're just we're just marksmanship and fundamentals and how to apply the rifle system to your tactics.
Frank Galli: Because it's you know, I'm not going to come in and say, well, you need to do it like this. It's like, well, maybe that's not your mission.
Harry: Yeah, yeah, sure. It's up to them.
Frank Galli: Right. But we could say, hey, if you're going to run the gun that way, a better way of doing it might be a little more contact on that obstacle. You know, your hand position could be compromised. Make sure you get your trigger control here. You know, if you're rolling something over or getting under a vehicle or doing these things, yeah, maybe don't roll over prone and do supine, maybe do a Hawkins position instead.
Frank Galli: You know, it's about giving somebody that tool in their toolbox versus saying, you know, you have to do this.
Harry: Yeah, sure. Wait. Did you find your students were pretty good? Like, were they already fairly skilled or did you have to teach them quite a lot?
Frank Galli: The military side was very good. I will say the biggest thing we we found with them is especially when they went to the semi-auto platforms. I'll they were going to other training for their M-16s, so their M-4 and M-16s, they would go to three gun guys or speed guys.
Frank Galli: And then when they started getting their their M1 tens or for them as Marco elevens before the 110. But if they had a Mach 11, which is a semi-automatic 308, they would do a cone of lead. So if they missed the first shot. Yeah, they would empty the mag on the second.
Harry: Yeah, fair enough.
Frank Galli: So that was the goal for us then was to try to convince them sort of the one shot, one kill mentality where put a value to the follow up shot instead of because like the first couple of times that happened, you know, you'd have a guy in and you'd run them up to test them and you'd say, okay, run up here, drop down, shoot that target. Yeah. And they, they'd run up, they drop down, they'd shoot the target and they'd miss and they'd go bank and that first shot would go off and then I'll send, you'd hear pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And then you go, All right, dude, what are you doing? And they just and they tell you, they say cone lead, right? It's like, Oh, no, no, no, let's do this a little better. So, yes, they're very good because they're they're in great shape. They're they're smart because, you know, the the special operations guys have to have a certain sort of set of smarts to them. They're they're their aptitude scores have to be higher than most people.
Harry: Yeah. It can't just be meat heads and.
Frank Galli: Right. Yeah. And so they take instruction really well. And so yeah, they, they do do well. But there is definitely you're fixing that incestuous training because yeah.
Harry: There's inbuilt behaviours it sounds like.
Frank Galli: Well because the military how they normally operate is they don't say you know you go, you go to combat like right now in today you went out you, you went to Afghanistan. Yeah. And you're a good troop. You did your job, everything was cool and maybe you had a mission and it gave you a little bit of a reputation. Everybody high fives, man. Harry did a good job. You come back to the States and they go, okay, so-and-so's rotating out of sniper school. We need a replacement here. He's a good dude. Get Harry over there. He slayed a bunch of guys. All right, Harry, you're an instructor.
Frank Galli: And it's like you never taught. You're 20 to 23 years old. You never taught anybody. You don't have formal education in this. You know, you're good. You're a good troop.
Frank Galli: So they.
Harry: Hand you.
Frank Galli: Yeah, they hand you the same paper that they that they handed the guy before you.
Frank Galli: And they say do this, just talk about this.
Frank Galli: And it doesn't give you that. It doesn't give you that sort of next level. It's just it's regurgitating what the person before you did.
Frank Galli: I mean, because I don't know about you, I don't know your background as far as any military or anything. But I mean, if.
Harry: You have no military experience. No, unfortunately, I wish, but unfortunately not.
Frank Galli: I can tell, like my my combat experience is super limited, but it's there. I mean, it's it's tiny. It's a little raid. No big deal. I wasn't learning anything there. You know, you're not learning. You may learn what not to do. You may learn don't turn this way. Don't go that way. But I'm not thinking about my fundamentals. I'm not looking at how I run the gun. I'm not looking at these things. I basically neutralize that, get to point A to point B and get home.
Frank Galli: So it's. It's not it's definitely a good experience to have because it teaches you sort of, you know, this calm under pressure. It teaches you to to manage yourself. Sure. But is it really teaching you to run a gun? And that's why the military guys, you know, go to the civilian side where I don't have to worry about getting there from point A to point B anymore. I don't have.
Harry: To worry about supplies.
Frank Galli: Yes. I don't have to worry about scuba diving. I don't have to worry about parachuting. I don't have to worry about ruck march. And all I have to do is shoot my rifle better than the next guy or be able to teach the next guy how to shoot the rifle better than the other guy.
Harry: Right. And you have the freedom to keep innovating? Of course. Yes. Because you're not hampered.
Frank Galli: Well, and then because I'm it's not a stepping stone where the instructors don't stay there, which you don't want them to stay there, really, especially in that environment. So. I can then focus and go, okay, we're teaching everybody this. Maybe it's the middle ranging stuff. You know, we're going to flash, flash, middle of target. Yeah. Okay. Well, what's an easier way to teach it? Well, we could do that rapid target engagement with the number system. Like the weaponized math that we've been doing.
Harry: Yes. So that sort of bit of that.
Frank Galli: Right. So we can sit there and go. All right. So like to to give everybody example of like the weaponized math we're talking about, we created a ballistic calculator that doesn't use any calculations. Really. It's just one number that we're multiplying. We created a single multiplier and we actually just put it in a hard copy chart form so you don't have to actually do the math. But it's a percentage base because we figured out doing these classes as much as we did that it's X percent from 300 to 400, it's x percent from 400 to 500. Right. And it doesn't matter caliber. It doesn't matter anything. Meters, yards, the multiplier is going to work to within two decimal places. Really.
Harry: Is it a constant. Is the multiplier constant or is. Yeah.
Frank Galli: Because like and this happened recently. I'm teaching a class and I teach my Alaska classes with my platoon sergeant from when I was in the Marine Corps.
Harry: Oh, wow.
Frank Galli: Him and I are still friends. We work together. He was a scout sniper instructor, went to instructor school. He was with me. And all the deployments, we reconnected and we teach. Well, he was in our classes. I record your dope. We have a guidebook. So for us. As a student, I'll come up and say, all right, here, you know, we're going to do 300 yards, put a mil on the gun and we'll get you fine tuned in. So we put a mill on your rifle, you shoot 300 yards and maybe your point, 8.8. Harry, write that down. That's your number. Well, I just wrote down for you, 300 yards is 0.8. So we we we took all this data and we were looking at it and we found, regardless of caliber, it was within a percentage point.
Frank Galli: So yeah, it was very eye opening. And so Mark flushed it all out, gave it to me, and I shot it and did it. And then we had guys on, snipers hide. Look at it. We said, Yeah, hey, everybody. I mean, now sniper site is big, right? So there's there's half a million unique people, 8 million viewers. So we have a big audience.
Harry: I was going to I was going to ask about that. Yeah, that's that is big.
Frank Galli: Yeah. So. I can throw information out on there and say, check my math.
Harry: For sure.
Frank Galli: And then people are able to come back to me and say, hey, it works for me. Up it was off right here for me. Okay. What we what we found is there was only a 10th difference between 800 to 1000.
Frank Galli: So now without a ballistic calculator, without knowing your dope, without knowing anything, you can take this weaponize math. And all you need to know is the target you hit before. Right, right. Right. Exactly. Your data on previous engagement. So if I know I use 0.8 to hit at 300, I do my multiplication for the four hunter. It's going to give me a number and I guarantee I'm going to be within a 10th at for Hunter.
Frank Galli: And it's hard.
Harry: That's never been done before. No one. No one's. Notice that before.
Frank Galli: No. Never been done. It's it's a it's a percentage of base. And I probably have a data book behind me somewhere and I can grab and even give you the numbers off the top of my head because I don't have them quite memorized, but. It. Yes. And so now when we teach a class, I have a laminated copy of this chart and you could be Mill or Moa, you could be whatever. But then I'm helping you learn because I could say, all right, you're an Moa guy, all right? You used ten and one half Moa at 500 yards and it's like, All right, use ten and a half. Well, what's your six? Multiply that by this. That's your six. I go to the next next student and I go, okay, you were mils and you were using 3.2. Multiply that for the next and that'll give you your 700, you know, and it's going to.
Harry: Be does it work like our to, you know, an infinite distance or is there a point at which you run out of all the multipliers no longer accurate? Like if you get like 2000, 3000 yards, does it stop working?
Frank Galli: We've only done it to 1000.
Harry: Right. Okay.
Frank Galli: So we haven't played the multiplication beyond that. You know, you start, like I said, at 800 because I'm I'm at 5000 feet above sea level. Right. It's it's about a 10th off of the other or it's a percentage point off, actually. So I have to manipulate the numbers to go out farther. We'd have to start manipulating numbers and it would be in the atmospheres are kicking in so much. Yeah. It would become different for everybody. You would be different from me.
Harry: Right, right. Okay, fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. I've been watching a few of your videos, you know, just to just to get a flavor for the way you teach and everything and you take probably because of your marine background and also because of, like the amount of training and immersion in the subject that you have, you take so much into account. But one thing that blew me away as well was the amount of math that you you can do in this and how many things you can take into account, which kills me because I'm not a numbers guy. So it's so easy to fall back on the Kestrel or the ballistic calculator or something, but I'm following your videos and trying to do it manually. Is that something you always teach is to get people to do it manually first, or are you happy for people to use the calculators?
Frank Galli: A little of both. And it is because think about this. If I have a handgun, right, I take my hand gun and I can do my gun finger, right? So I got my finger out, my index and I point at something. So here in my office, I'm going to point at a picture on the wall. If I have a handgun in my hand, I'm going to hit it. Yeah, for sure. If I'm going to do a car being inside a room, if I'm going to do a car being pretty much inside that 100 yards, if I point my finger, I'm going to hit it.
Frank Galli: Great. And there's a mechanical offset for the car being I get it. But at the end of the day, if I if I didn't, if I'm going to go inside a room with a car being a point I hit.
Harry: Of course I'm going to go.
Frank Galli: If I'm going to go, be inside my house. I point I hit.
Frank Galli: With my precision rifle. It could be, you know, 1200 meters away. Yeah. And I'm going to be oh, I'm going to be about 18, 25 feet above it. Yeah. And then I'm going to be another ten or 12 feet to the side of it.
Frank Galli: And now I have to figure out where in space, 18 feet high and, you know, ten, 12 feet to the left or right. I need to point my rifle in order to hit it.
Harry: Of course. Yeah. Yeah, of course. So useful.
Frank Galli: Yeah, yeah. You have to understand the math, but I'm not opposed to using the calculator. But what I do. Do what everybody with a calculator is. I do. I call it, you know that don't get distracted by your dope. And with our phones and our computers, they're they're a distraction. Because I'll go into my philosophy on this for you. Yeah. So what happens is here's the mindset. Guy goes out and he's going to get a new he's going to buy a Tica six five Creedmoor He's in my attack. Tacky one. He's going to put a Steiner MX five or something on it and he's going to go out, shoot. And he's a happy camper.
Frank Galli: So. He goes in and he buys the rifle. He he gets a couple of ammunition. He orders this scope. And it's going to be in the mail in a week. Well, what's the first thing he does when he gets home? He downloads a ballistic calculator.
Frank Galli: And he starts putting numbers.
Harry: In it around. Yeah.
Frank Galli: He strikes. It's on his phone. It's a game.
Harry: And he's going to yourself.
Frank Galli: Right, right, right. Now, he doesn't know anything about shooting or very little, I should say. Yeah. So then he goes to the range the first day to zero the scope and he he struggles, maybe he takes a whole box of ammo to zero and now he's going to start doping it out. And 100 meters, he's all good. Maybe even 200 meters. No big deal. It's, you know, 2 minutes or he's a 0.5 over something like this or 0.3. So that dialing up 0.3 is no big deal. He can he can see that. Sure. Now he goes to three hunter and he's nowhere near and he doesn't know what's going on. And he looks at his ballistic calculator and the ballistic calculator says, Hey, man, you need 1.5 and he puts 1.5 million. And he can't find it. He's nowhere.
Harry: Near there.
Frank Galli: Yeah, right. Because he had a half mil over the target because he really needs like 0.8, you know. And so he's struggling and he's looking at his phone and he goes, But my phone says, but my phone says, I read on the Internet that this ballistic program is the best program I can get. And my phone says 1.5.
Frank Galli: And he struggles. But if we explain to you and we say, listen, here's how my class goes on first on this that morning, we're going to dope out the rifles. We put everybody on the line. We give them that weaponize math. Right. Or in the past, they were getting the number from me. Right. You know, what do I do for 400? Here's your number. What do I do for three? I'm giving it to you. What are you learning when I give it to you?
Harry: Right. And that's a baseline you're giving them.
Frank Galli: Yeah, well, I know, like, what, a 308? It's from 300 to 6, 700 yards. It's one mil every hundred yards. If you have a 300 at a mill, at a mill, at a mill, you're going to be close. Right. You know, if it's a65 creed .8.8.8. So I can I can get you there.
Frank Galli: And but now with the weaponize math, we're giving you a real number and you're learning something. So I have you write down your actual dope. So now we've shot for the last 4 hours, you have from 200 to 1000 meter doped out. No phone, no calculator, no kestrel.
Frank Galli: Now let's take that numbers because they're good. We know what they are. We just did it. Let's go in the classroom now. Let's true your computer. So your.
Frank Galli: Yes. Your computer has to match your rifle. Your rifle can never match the computer, you know what I mean? And so.
Harry: Yeah, absolutely.
Frank Galli: We're we're trying to put this logical order for you to follow rather than you fight the system, trying to get, you know, struggle with the computer where. It. It's instead of somebody playing with their computer for a long time, it's done really quick.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah.
Frank Galli: And. And one of the things we do because we don't. We do like I tried every method. To start people off immediately with their software.
Frank Galli: What I would do the 100 yard zero, I would chronograph every rifle. Yeah. And then we would plug into the computer and then it's still be off because we've got to true it.
Harry: Right. Okay.
Frank Galli: Well, then we tried a 300 drop method where we did all that 100 yards, zero, we chronograph to your rifle and then we shot with no dope on the rifle. Three hunter. In measured the drop with a ruler.
Frank Galli: Wasn't right for every rifle we. I had a Valkyrie that shot. Point of aim point of impact. It's like what the heck's going on? Because there will always be one student in the class.
Frank Galli: That didn't work. So then what we started doing was. No chronograph. Throw the chronograph out the window. If you're reloading and you're doing all that great by a chronograph, if you're just going to go out and shoot, use 600 meter dope your rifle to 600 meter, and then line the muzzle velocity on your computer up with that.
Harry: Right. Okay.
Frank Galli: So now you take your 600 meter drop line, your muzzle velocity up in your computer, because problem is if I chronograph my rifle. The computer is going to change that number anyway.
Frank Galli: Because that's how they. True. So why bother going through the effort when I'm just going to. So, you know, some guy gets 27, 50 and the next thing you know, the computer wants him to use 26, 80 or 28, ten. You know.
Harry: It's funny because they do a lot of people online do push the chronograph and, you know, talk about it. It's essential, you know, or I'm not saying professional people do it. I'm saying, you know, just commentors.
Frank Galli: You know. Well, it's it's it's a product. Everybody wants to buy it. But the thing is and the reason I say if you're if you're reloading and if you're creating your own round, it's essential.
Harry: Yeah, of.
Frank Galli: Course. If you're a casual shooter and you're going to depend on a computer, the computer's going to change that number anyway.
Frank Galli: So what you would do is you would put your muzzle velocity of 600, then go to either 800 or 1000 and shoot again. So now you've got a 600 yard drop and you've got to either an 800 or 1000. Well, when you get your 801,000, if it needs to be adjusted still, if you need to fine tune your computer, well then you use B.S..
Frank Galli: So I've tweaked my muzzle velocity to make the computer happy at 600. At 800, I tweaked the B.S. to match the two. Now, if I move around, if I travel, if I do anything, think of a set of scales. Screwing your computer is two scales. You got a left hand. Right hand in the pan of the scale goes up and down. Yeah, well, if I only depend on muzzle velocity in my left hand and I put more weight on that will muzzle velocity with more weight goes down, the BC side is going to go up on the scale. Sure. So. So now I have like an imperfect. True. Well, if I take an imbalance, the muzzle velocity and then bring that beak back into alignment, I've now balanced the scale again.
Frank Galli: And what we found is it's a lot less variations when you move location. It's a lot like because for me being in Colorado but you know, mile high of sea level. Yeah if I go to Florida which is almost below sea swamp.
Harry: Yeah, yeah. Right.
Frank Galli: If I go there, I have to retrieve my computer in the old if I, if I, if I follow the instructions that Castro puts out. To the public. I have to be true. If I manually do it the way I just said I don't. And they actually kind of tell the military to do both. Edie Yeah. And so like I just said, they kind of give a little different instruction to the military than they do the civilians. Yeah. So here's the other problem. If you're going to use the complete Castro functions to true, you need like for a65 Creedmoor, you need about 12 to 1400 yards for the subsonic part.
Harry: We. We're ready to get. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Sorry.
Frank Galli: Go see. Where do you get 4500 yards to shoot through you?
Harry: Like, maybe Scotland. You know, that's about it. Why was this pretty empty? Not where I live.
Frank Galli: Yeah, but if you look at the dsf, when you go to put that number in, it's beyond the range most people have access to.
Harry: Yeah, for sure.
Frank Galli: Our way of doing it sort of cheats the system, but in a way that most software worked prior to this. You know, because like I said, I have software that goes back to the 2000s and stuff that was on Palm Pilots and things like that.
Frank Galli: And we've always trued both elements and never just one. And yes, there was a period of time where the software people said, oh, just do this with muzzle velocity. And it sort of works. Right? But the deeper we get into it, the more variety we put behind it, the less we see it works without doing it again and doing it again and doing it again.
Harry: Just constantly resetting it.
Frank Galli: Yeah. So that's I'm not anti software at all. I have every piece of software ever made probably.
Harry: Yeah, sure. I suspect you get sent a lot of stuff all the time. Like, try this, try that, try.
Frank Galli: I do. You know, I have two phones just because one of them is 100% just for software. My my android is just to run software because I'm an Apple iPhone guy. Sure. And so a lot of times software writers will write for Android first. And so for me to run test stuff, I have a phone just for that. I have I have like test setups when people do send things.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Because Android is a more open system, isn't it. And Apple's quite sort of restrictive on what they allow on the App Store. So from what I've heard, yeah, yeah.
Frank Galli: And even like for you guys, I have a Windows phone as well. I don't have. Yeah, yes I have.
Harry: No they still made them.
Frank Galli: They don't really. But it, it doesn't have a SIM card in it, it just hooks to wi fi. But my windows phone runs cold bore, which is from Patagonia ballistics out of Argentina.
Harry: Right. Okay. Yeah.
Frank Galli: So he his his software only runs on cold bore. So I have a phone that I just turn on and off and connect to wi fi but doesn't make any phone calls. But that's that's the system that it needs to run that software.
Harry: Do you think? Because I mean, you've sort of answered the question about the importance of software. It is important, but but also do the do the analog version. But there's I'm seeing a huge shift in the industry and I think you referenced this in one of your videos that post 911, the long range shooting industry, the civilian side changed massively. There was like a lot of development, a lot of changes happening where the old style of like to use your phrasing just now, the kind of Vietnam War, World War Two style of stuff went away and you started developing these new systems and with it came a ton of new technology and a ton of new accessories. And now you look at the market like I was at Shot Show in January and you look at the there's so many different stores where they're developing one tiny piece of the rifle system or of the software, but they're developing it into this to the nth degree. And if you want, you can go out and spend 50 grand on gear like tomorrow. But obviously you don't need all that gear. There's two questions out of that. One, what is the essential gear for somebody in long range or is moving into long ranges? Do it a little bit and wants to get serious about it, but not blow the bank. And to where do you see that going in terms of the US gun industry? Is it good for the industry? Is it creating confusion? What are your thoughts?
Frank Galli: Yeah, it's money. You know, the military invested so much money and, you know, like the Special Forces guys were getting unlimited budgets early on. I think it took like forever for Canada to finally go to their SF guys and you know, hey, you guys have to give us a budget because we can't keep going unlimited for you. But yes. And so. That it is changing, it is going electronic and it is biting people. So there is a downside to electronics and now essential gear and to be serious yet. That's that's a loaded question in a lot of ways. Sure. You know yeah. You need your rifle you need you need a good good rifle. Right. You know, and like I said, I'll go back to the tech platform. I think it's a great platform. Yeah. So you get a you get a tech attack. A one. Yeah. Or even at3.
Frank Galli: T3x. Right. And, but I'll stick with the tech one because it's more of the military look with the chassis system and it's more of a crossover. You buy that now you want to get a good scope put in top it. What a good scope. What a usable reticle. The reticle is the key point of a scope. Now there's two elements really. There's your elevation, your usable elevation. You want to make sure that has enough for the caliber you're shooting. Yeah. And then you want the reticle and sort of that adjustment system that works for you. So the radical and the turrets have to match and you want the one that when you look at it, your mind says, yes, I understand this because you're it's a ruler, right? So you don't want a ruler that's in a foreign language to you. You want a ruler that's going to speak to you. So that's an essential thing.
Frank Galli: Well, then from there, right, you need good ammo, a rear bag. And then I always advocate I'm a I'm a bipod slob because I've seen bipod matter. So you want a good bipod? You know what I mean? A stamped sheet metal Harris is your lowest common denominator. Does it work?
Harry: Absolutely, yeah.
Frank Galli: Are they out of square? Are they out of spec? Do they bounce on the springs? Are they, you know, hard to deal with? And are you going to do more than you should on your side of the rifle because you're running a Harris? Yes. But will it work? Absolutely. You know, so you want a good bipod in that, you know. So I'm definitely in that essential equipment then like bag wise. Starting out. You need one bag, a good rear bag.
Frank Galli: Okay. So you need the rear bag. Now, as you progress, you're going to want to go into the competitions or do something even on the military side, if you're going to be serious and you're going to move to the next level. Well, then there's there's a two bag solution. So one is a Saracen, a war horse type, a game changer, the heavy. The. It's a support bag. Okay, so you need a support bag for the rifle?
Frank Galli: Then the one is you need the pillow or the support bag for you. So to me that would be the essential products right there. Is that now the last missing part is you either need the data book or you need the computer.
Frank Galli: Well, if you're going with the computer, you better have some kind of backup hard copy piece of paper, I think. Hard copy. Hard copy to me is always going to beat a computer. Because of weather conditions, things like that. Now, if you're if you're a guy out there listening and you're strictly a phone guy and you're going to run software on your phone, I will tell you, if you come to my range in August and if you put your phone down and you shoot your first yard line and then you get your dope for your next yard line, and then I say, okay, hey, we're going to talk about this shot we just take. And I and I spend 10 minutes talking to you and then I send you back to your rifle. Your phone's going to be shut off.
Frank Galli: Because the heat.
Harry: Oh, oh, really? 3 minutes just got the screen has gone off. You mean the heat's going to kill it?
Frank Galli: Yeah, because I'm a mile closer to the sun. It's going to be 90 degrees, and it's going to go into thermal mode immediately. Wow.
Harry: Okay. Yep. Well, there's the weakness in the system straight away.
Frank Galli: Right now, your kestrel is better because it won't have that happen. But then, you know, you might run into cases where, you know, you get out of your car, you're walking over, you dropped your kestrel and your guy drove by, your buddy came, pulled up. And right when you dropped your kestrel, he drove up and rolled and drove over it.
Harry: Yeah, for sure.
Frank Galli: Now, you just broke Kestrel. What are you going to do?
Harry: Oh, you screw it. Go home. Yeah.
Frank Galli: Or you're spinning it to get the atmosphere as you're spinning it and spinning it. And you let go of it and you fling it and it breaks, you know, maybe, maybe not. But anyway, so I always consider a hard copy backup. To me, that's essential gear that gets everything done. Now, then from there, you can look at laser range finders. I'm a big fan of them. I honestly don't see. Yes, you know, middle ranging is a legacy skill, but it's 600 metres and NW.
Frank Galli: It was for your personal danger space. It wasn't meant to range something at 900, it was meant to read something at 500.
Harry: So it was originally a military technique.
Frank Galli: Yeah, because it was artillery for me. I have a 600 metre danger close window. Yeah. I have a radio. Yeah. A well. Inside 600 is my personal danger space. I'm, I'm I'm. I'm threatened by everything inside 600.
Harry: Yeah. So you going to take it out.
Frank Galli: Right after that? Not so much. I have time and opportunity to do my job. I can I can look at the map. I can do all kinds of things, reference points. I can throw artillery out there if I want.
Frank Galli: You know, I could drop a drone, I could do whatever I have to do. But inside, they're going to be a little more hesitant. I better be in trouble before they're going to drop it.
Frank Galli: You know, so that's why there's different ways of doing the job that way that people don't have the context. You know, because we only see an image of, you know, just like, you know, you do by pods. So people always look at the pictures of the snipers from my era or shooting off their backpack, their ruck.
Harry: Yeah, sure.
Frank Galli: So I'm going to throw you guys at Bergen, right? So I'm going to throw my Bergen down. I'm going to. I'm going to put it on top. I'm going to drop on top of it. And I'm going to get my shot off. And then I'm going to pick up everything and I'm going to go. Well, what they didn't know is my sniper rifle, my m4a1 didn't have a bipod and had no way of putting one on it. Even if they had one. Really, there's no there's no mount. So what we used to do is we used to make a tripod out of our tent stakes with 550 cord.
Harry: Oh, wow.
Frank Galli: If I was going to be in a more permanent position, I can make a little tripod with my tent stakes. I can I could take my three tent stakes because I'm going to carry them anyway. I can wrap them with 550 when I get to my location. I just turn them to the side and I create a tripod and I can put my rifle on it. What if I'm moving and I'm moving a contact? Well, then I'm not going to take that out of my pack. I'm not going to put all these things together. I'm just going to drop my pack down. I'm going to shoot off it.
Harry: Yeah, yeah.
Frank Galli: No more than three shots from any one position and displace.
Harry: Oh, really? I didn't know that. That's interesting. Well, that's cool. Tradecraft.
Frank Galli: Yeah. I don't want to catch an artillery round.
Harry: Right. Of course. Yeah. Water or something? Yeah. Yeah.
Frank Galli: You know what I mean? I don't want to eat a tank round or something. It's in. I actually know somebody who. It was the ah I was, it was a friendly fire situation, but there was a sniper on overwatch and the infantry saw him. And what's. What was the counter? They sent the tank round after him and actually kind of hurt him a little bit. Ouch. But they use a tank, you know.
Harry: Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. They're not going to risk themselves. Just put a shell in there.
Frank Galli: So context with precision rifle is the lacking part of it. That's the missing element.
Harry: You've been listening to the Tier one podcast brought to you by Tier one, makers of the world's finest rifle accessories. Find out more at Tier one U.S.A. and tune in for more great insights on the next episode.