Check out Frank's new book, Precision Rifle Marksmanship: The Fundamentals - A Marine Sniper's Guide to Long Range Shooting:
Find Frank on:
- What critical piece of your setup to spend money on
- Dry firing, drills that will massively improve your accuracy
- WTF - Frank's mantra
- The future of the long range sport and industry
Check us out at www.tier-one.usa.com
Intro: Welcome to the Tier one podcast. Bringing you interviews with the brightest minds in the shooting industry. Get unique insights to help you shoot better, survive longer, and outperform your competition brought to you by Tier one, the world's best shooting accessories.
Harry: Hey, guys, thank you very much for joining us for this part two of our interview with Frank Galli on the Tier One podcast. I've already done Frank's intro on the previous episode, so you know who he is if you haven't heard that. Do listen to it and catch up to where we are. There's a huge amount of information and quality stuff in there that that you can take away and apply to your own shooting. In this episode, we talk about a whole lot of stuff, but including what's the most important part of your life was set up for accuracy and precision. In other words, where should you pour your hard earned money to eke that little bit more accuracy out of it? The importance of dry firing goes to cover Frank's mantra That will be ATF, and that's literally what it is. WCF It doesn't mean quite what you think, though, so keep listening to understand that a bit better. And then also what the King of Two Mile competition is teaching us things we can take away from that and how we're going to keep pushing those range boundaries and start shooting further and more accurately. So without any further ado, let's dive straight into part two of our interview with Frank Galli.
Frank Galli: So that's where I come from. I try to put context to things when people just throw out the generalizations.
Harry: Yeah, yeah, fair enough. You do get a lot of generalities. I think you can go mad if you just follow threads, user discussions on the internet or what?
Frank Galli: Because it lacks context.
Frank Galli: And part of the thing is, is I tell this to everybody, like even with wind strategy, have a plan and stick with it.
Frank Galli: You know, don't try to change something like on a pure risk type of deal if you walk up, if you practice barricades. Right. So you're going to do you know, you're going to shoot a match. You know you're going to shoot a barricade.
Frank Galli: And then maybe somebody from the US comes over to shoot one of your matches and now you have you have a plan in your head. I'm going to shoot the barricade like this because this is how I practiced. Well, now you see somebody in front of you from the US and they do it completely different.
Frank Galli: And they clean it.
Harry: Yeah. And you're going, wow.
Frank Galli: Right. Right now you go, wow. I never seen anybody do it like that. And he cleaned it. I'm going to try it. Is that is that the time to try that?
Harry: Well, under pressure, absolutely right. For sure.
Frank Galli: Yeah. And these are the the missing tips and tricks. I mean, like Palin, there's a there's a there's a little core element of us that says and especially in the cop world now, guys want to know the tips and tricks before they know the trade.
Harry: Yeah, for sure. It's like, yeah, we've got there's another phrase that kind of sums up that ethos. So what you're saying there, which is like all the gear. No idea. Yes. Yeah. The not working the fundamentals first.
Frank Galli: And and I'm a fan of gear man. I'm sure I see the the piece people don't understand about me is I'm a fan first and that's why I have the longevity. That's why I have the passion. That's why I have the drive because I'm a fan. That's why my my podcast has new episodes every friggin week.
Harry: Yeah, you love it, right?
Frank Galli: So I'm about the gear, but I'm not about needlessly wasting your money on gear. I'm not about buying a solution unless you know you need that tool.
Harry: What are the in your mind then, in your experience, what are the critical fundamentals that people should be working on before they're going after the next shiny object?
Frank Galli: Um, well, it's all the basics. They work, they translate to anything. And to go back to the essential gear, I will add, especially for, you know, on both sides of the house, a tripod is become the essential piece of gear. Now, if if I had to, only if they said you can have your rifle in one thing else, even if it was one thing meant the bipod too. If they said you can only have, you know, you got your rifle and scope, you got a box of ammo, you can pick one thing. It's a tripod.
Harry: Really? Okay.
Frank Galli: I would pick a tripod over a bipod if I had to make that choice.
Harry: What's informing that decision for you?
Frank Galli: I could do anything with the tripod. There's nothing I can't do. I can walk from. From, I guess, London to Scotland.
Frank Galli: And if I had a firing solution every ten. Miles.
Frank Galli: Including if I was standing in water, if I was in a swamp up to my chest.
Frank Galli: I can make a shot. I can make a shot with a tripod.
Frank Galli: You know, so to me, it's a do everything well, especially the way the rifles are now. But the fundamentals don't change. I mean, you need, like, alternate positions when you're doing something off your belly, that natural point of aim, right? You need to line up straight. And we all know we're all shooting straighter now than we were. So natural. Point of aim is not muscling the rifle. It's getting in. It's putting everything in a straight line. Eliminate angles.
Frank Galli: Well, then we're going to we're going to aim, right. So our sight picture so that that we could depending on the optic, the power, there's a little compromise you could play in there with the parallax, with the different things that we do and opening up eye boxes. But you got to aim in. The bullet is going to go where the radical is. If we zeroed our rifle correctly, the bullet goes where the radical right. So we have to align that well then, you know, people talk about the breathing side, right? So breathing is our life. We have to breathe. Just want you want to keep breathing and but you want to you want it to not influence the shot because it's going to move you. So you break at the bottom collapse on your skeletal structure. If you think about an element of a good shooting position back in the day with a sling was bone support.
Frank Galli: Well, if I'm at the bottom of my natural respiratory pause, I've collapsed on my skeletal structure. The two big balloons in my chest are no longer in the way. I'm not bouncing on them. I'm now on my rib cage.
Frank Galli: Or support. So I get that. Now the two the two biggest problems are trigger control and follow through. Sure. I have to nail my trigger control and follow through because. Thousands. All right. So 14 thousandths of an inch is 20 minutes at 100 yards. That's your bait, right? So the front of a front of a if you take a 20 minute bass like a badger or I don't know who's another who's a brand of rail that you guys put.
Harry: Well, we make our own rails. Yeah, we tow in it.
Frank Galli: Okay. Isn't it at about 14, about 11 to 14 thousandths of an inch difference between the front and the back.
Harry: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're probably right. I'd have to ask Craig, the designer, because he. He knows the text better than me, but, yes, I'm sure it's about right.
Frank Galli: Right. Subtract the front from the back. It's half of your bullet width.
Frank Galli: Think about that. It's half your bullet width is 20 inches at 100 yards. So any movement, if you divide that by 20 now divide that. Divide ten thousandths of an inch by 20. Oh, that's, that's one inch of error at 100 yards.
Frank Galli: So that's why trigger control and follow through are so important. Say, I mean, in life, right? You've got to follow through. If you're going to do this, you don't want a half step. So these fundamentals mimic everyday life and they're supposed to be subconscious. Right. I don't really want to think about them, but I need to execute them to the best of my ability. I need to know when I'm going to trade off an index, when I'm when one's compromised. What do I do with the rest? I just ran. I just ran 200 yards. I'm breathing really heavy now.
Frank Galli: Yeah. What do I what what do I do to fix that? You've got to know these things. And so that's why fundamentals translate from handgun to carbine to precision rifle. LR Press, you know, golf, baseball, football. I mean, you guys get American football over there now watch during a kickoff.
Frank Galli: And they'll kick the ball into the end zone. Right. They just did 120 yard kick.
Frank Galli: And the opposing team just lets the ball go past them. Doesn't try to catch it.
Frank Galli: Well, the defenders are all running down after him. Well, when he lets the ball go, do they stop running or do they run till they touch the end zone?
Harry: I haven't watched it. Do they do they run till they get to the end zone?
Frank Galli: Yes, they run till they hit the end zone. Because you're not serious if you stop.
Harry: Yeah. No, I get what you say.
Frank Galli: I get what you say. You're not right. So if I don't know soccer enough that to say.
Harry: But I'll give you a rugby. So I watch a lot of rugby and just recently I think it was even England who got caught out because it's supposed to play to the whistle. Right. So even if you know that ball is offside or it's gone into touch, which means it's gone out beyond beyond the boundary of the field, you're supposed to keep playing and tackle the guy and defend. And they didn't. And the guy ran on and there was no whistle. Right.
Frank Galli: Was it? Yes. Play through. And it's the same with with with shooting your precision rifle. You have to follow through. You have to go and make sure that you're executing these things and that you're being consistent behind it. And. The rest. The rest will take care of its it reduces the learning curve.
Frank Galli: By by executing right. It's not to say you can't get our stuff is so good today I can take a £26 six millimeter, lay it on a bag with a eight ounce trigger and I will hit a target every single time because the rifle is doing all the work.
Harry: It's just so precise.
Frank Galli: Right. But what happens if you take that same guy and now you give him a hunting rifle with a £4 trigger, would a crazy recoil and all these other things and you say now do it the same. Yeah. Well they, they can't. Right. It's a, it's, it's Porsche versus tractor trailer.
Frank Galli: I can get from point A to point B if I'm going to drive a big old Volvo tractor trailer or something over there.
Frank Galli: And then I can get my little Mini Cooper or something and go zipping through traffic. I can't drive my Volvo truck the same way. I'm going to drive that Mini Cooper.
Harry: No, for real. But the fundamentals carry over across disciplines.
Frank Galli: So that's my mindset behind this. I appreciate it. I learn it. I need to know it, but I need to know how to apply it. And I need to know the pros and cons of it. And I need to know 360 degrees of it, not just a quarter of it. I mean, you know, the old saying is knowing enough to be dangerous. There's a lot of that out there.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You see that in everything, not just shooting sports as well. You see it in in everything. A little bit of information is a dangerous thing.
Frank Galli: But my favorite example is the guys who own a product and say, Well, I own it. Like, you could tell they don't know how to shoot, but they own something. Uh huh. And when when they do that, I always post a picture of, you know, I find the first day with my Ferrari and I wrecked it.
Harry: No, that wasn't you actually, was it?
Frank Galli: It's another. No, no, no. But there's always a photograph. Internet in the story is he bought a Ferrari and he wrecked it a mile from the dealer.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah.
Frank Galli: You know, he owned her. Yeah, that guy owns a Ferrari. You know, he can go on the Internet and tell everybody he owns a Ferrari, but he can't drive a Ferrari.
Harry: For sure.
Frank Galli: You know.
Harry: For sure. But. So I mean, that's that's it's like it's great because it's common sense stuff, but it's not that common. I mean, it is, it's I think we all could do better to practice those fundamentals. And the crucial thing that I lifted out of that, as you said, it should be subconscious. And so many bad habits are subconscious. You know, you think you're doing everything right at the range. And I've watched you working with a with a guy. And in fact, I think you were working on trigger control. And you don't give him any instruction. You get him to take a few shots and you take your notes and there's like straight away you can see the guy is he's thinking about too many things all at once and he's he's he's snapping the trigger instead of squeezing it. And there's all these little things that should be ingrained and are not what the effect is the other way.
Frank Galli: Yes. And I do in all my classes, I do what's called the fundamental level. So you come to a you come to a frank class and it doesn't matter who you are in my class, you're all the same the first day. Well, I do the safety brief. You come in, I introduce. Hi, how are you doing? Here we are, safety brief. This is our safety protocols. Make sure everything's good. Now go get your rifle and everything you need to shoot five rounds. And I created a kind of 20 item checklist, and it's called a fundamental level. And I used to do it just for me. I wrote it down and then would reference it in the class. And then I created the checklist to give to the student, sort of like a prescription. And so they can look, I do it twice. I do one in the beginning and one at the end and the beginning. One is done before I've taught you anything. And what I'm doing is I'm nitpicking the hell out of your position.
Frank Galli: And so it's twofold because I don't know why this happens. It's an American thing mostly, but it happens all the time. You get a guy who signs up for $1,000 class, he shows up. And he's got his arms crossed before you even start. And he's got an attitude and he's like, you know, why are you teaching me this class?
Harry: And I paid for it. Yes.
Frank Galli: So there's an ego to it.
Frank Galli: Well, when I put you down with no instruction in on command, I say to you, okay, shoot five round group. And now I'm. I'm one foot away from you with a pen and paper. And before you even shop, I'm scribbling furiously.
Frank Galli: Yes, that gets in your head.
Harry: Oh, for sure.
Frank Galli: And and so then, you know, that strips away the ego. Yeah. And it allows me to teach a class.
Harry: Yeah. It's very, very humbling, isn't it? I guess.
Frank Galli: Well, we in our PR too, we actually call it the.
Harry: Humbler I.
Frank Galli: In that one. I do the same thing, but I do an unknown distance thing where I make you come up to a blind stage and I say, There's a red target out there. Find it range in engagement. You got 2 minutes, so.
Frank Galli: And we call that the humbler because hardly anybody hits it. But the fundamental evil then lets you go. And now I teach the class and the first thing I do is I go through those fundamentals. And those fundamentals take me about an hour to an hour and a half of instruction.
Frank Galli: But you got your prescription, your checklist. And so I can go and say, Harry, you tap the trigger. You didn't follow through and you were holding your breath like this because I've just seen it.
Frank Galli: And now we after that's done and we go back to the 100 yard range. Now we strip everything away from you. Okay? We're going to move your scope if you need it moved, if you're canted off to the side of your if you were a little green army man with your leg up and you're shoot sideways. Sure, we fix. We fix you. So now if I bring you straight, I've got to move your scope.
Harry: Yeah. So you have a flat with the feet flat and everything.
Frank Galli: We were making clones, man. If you look at, like, the pictures from Alaska, everybody looks identical on the line. It doesn't matter what you're shooting now. We will put guys on a bench if you're older, got physical limitations. We have ways of managing a bench that are different than for other people. We don't shoot cut out benches, we shoot square benches, we get straight behind it and we use it like the prone. We push ourselves forward on it, we lay our chest on it. We want both elbows on the bench and we want you straight and square. And we've even designed a bench and we put sort of a bipod block on it and we square them off. And for like older gentlemen, we can even have a guy standing behind that bench in that position and they'll shoot every bit as good as everybody else. You know, standing up on the bench just depends on their physical limitations. But I'm not opposed to students. I'm not opposed to shooting in the condition they're used to. So if your range doesn't let you go prone and you have no plans on going prone, why would I teach you prone? If you don't.
Harry: Want your it's not going to be useful.
Frank Galli: Right? So we'll let you do a bench in my classes if we have that ability depending on where they're located. But you know, my range has a bench, the Alaska Range has a bench on the ranges, but some don't. But some people just aren't physically meant to be prone.
Harry: No, of course there's a lot of variation in humans, isn't there? Yeah. And that's why you see bipod come in different heights lengths as extensions. And as you say, the tripod is infinitely adaptable.
Frank Galli: That's a that's a pet peeve of mine is the bipod is that you'll get a big guy who puts gets by he's a 6 to 9 Harris and puts it on the lowest setting because he heard he has to get as low as possible. Yeah, well, prone is as low as you can get. The only thing below prone is dead, you know. And so you adjust the bipod for your body type.
Harry: Sure, sure.
Frank Galli: Me is going to be different than you. So why would you artificially do something? Someone else told you it's your car. When I teach a class, I teach your rifle. Set up. The bipod is like your car seats, mirrors and steering wheel.
Harry: Yeah, makes no sense.
Frank Galli: Yeah. So if somebody says I got to be as low as possible and they put their bipod super low, say they're six foot two, £230.
Frank Galli: You know, why does that guy have a 6 to 9 bipod on the lowest setting? That's the dumbest thing on the planet.
Harry: Sure. So it's like, why didn't you see right forward?
Frank Galli: Yeah, you're right. So he gets in. He gets in my I have a Tuareg, a Volkswagen, the diesel Tuareg there, you know. Yeah. If that six foot tall guy gets in my Tuareg, his chest is going to be against the steering wheel because I'm only five foot nothing.
Frank Galli: Move the dang seat. Yeah.
Harry: Don't just, you know, struggle through.
Frank Galli: Right? Like when you buy a new car from the dealer, you he hands you the car, you got to move the seats in the mirrors. Oh then sure. Then when you get home you get all comfortable behind it, you get in the car. I don't know if you guys do, but I do. I get all comfortable, I move all my mirrors, I fine tune it. I set the little one, two, three button the you know, me, the girl, the valet. I'm doing all that and I'm adjusting all that stuff. But I take. I take 15 minutes to set the seats in my car up?
Harry: Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. And normally your wife mucks it all up for you.
Frank Galli: Well, that's my next point. If. If you got in your car tomorrow and last night, your wife went to the store and didn't tell you, and she moved. She moved the seat and then left it. You would immediately know.
Harry: Oh, absolutely. It feels wrong. You have such a muscle memory with your car seat and you're driving position.
Frank Galli: Well, if you set your rifle up correctly, you'll have that same exact muscle memory. You'll be able to do all these things because you feel it, because you put the repetitions in. And this is where you were saying, you know, repetitions. It's the bad habits, right? You need the 9000 repetitions to fix a bad habit. Yeah, it's. It's 3000 positive reps to build a new habit and 9000 to fix a bad one.
Harry: Wow. Can you dry fire that? I mean, is it because obviously you're not. Yeah. Okay.
Frank Galli: Can you? Absolutely. But you can't cheat it. You can't just lift the bolt and pass the trigger. You have to do all 9000 as if everyone was a real shot.
Frank Galli: I mean, if you look. At the hand gun world. There are Japanese competitors who can't shoot live rounds in Japan. Who come to the US and come to other countries to shoot competitions who've only dry practice and have one and done well.
Harry: Wow. Wow. They just they are very. Not to stereotype, but they have a culture of. Of repetition. Until something is perfect in their martial arts.
Frank Galli: At least it's a martial art in exactly that. So what they're doing in a martial art is that they're doing a martial art. The. It's the kata, I think. Right. I'm probably.
Harry: Right. Yeah.
Frank Galli: That's dry practice.
Harry: Form. Yeah.
Frank Galli: Your form when you're going through the one, two, three fours, you know the he. Yeah. You know, whatever the heck they call, you know, that's dry practice.
Frank Galli: Your ear walk, crawl, you know, your crawl, walk, run.
Harry: Yeah. Yep.
Frank Galli: And so that's, that's kind of where I come from with that is that all these things are repeated in other sports. We're just not looking at it in the same way because we could buy it.
Harry: Yeah, that's the thing with the gear for sure. Yeah. So I've got a couple of questions. Obviously six, five and six, five. Creedmoor is everywhere now. It didn't use to be, but it is. I've heard you refer to it as. As one of the wind cheaters. Mm hmm. We have heard through the grapevine. Or, you know, it's probably good common knowledge that Special Forces units are trial, trialing that round in the States and here and elsewhere. Yep. What are your personal thoughts on all of the variations of the 6.5? And secondly, to that, if you could pick only one gun and one caliber, what would it be? Would it be 6.5?
Frank Galli: Yeah. Yeah. I love six five. And our military was doing 260 prior and I shot a lot of 260. I wish 260 was better supported, but the six five creed is money. I like it. I'm a big fan. Yes. Like we can go back to 2015 is our guys were running the six five variants even a little before that. So we've been doing it for a longer than we've advertised it.
Frank Galli: So if I only could pick the one gun. My, my, my one gun. Holy Grail gun is an AI. I'm an I'm an AI fan. I'm good friends with Dave Walls over there and Tom and everybody and Alice and known them forever. My one gun is an I. There's no getting around it. I probably if it was if it was the apocalypse kind of deal, I'd probably do a308 just because of numbers. But I will say, you know, as the world spins today, I'm going to do a65. I can go I can go to the backwoods of Alaska. I can get six five on the shelf.
Frank Galli: Yeah, even six. Creedmoor is on the shelves in nowhere.
Harry: Alaska, right.
Frank Galli: You know, Hornaday through Hornaday is the big one. They put that stuff everywhere there in every shelf out here. There's there's no Wal Mart gun shop that doesn't have it. So the logistics have been solved.
Harry: It's no longer an issue.
Frank Galli: Right. You know, there is an argument for the one gun for me, although I don't I don't like it. But I guess if I had to go, if the world was going to explode and I thought I could get away with it, I'd rather do a 338.
Frank Galli: But I'm smaller. It's not quite as practical. I'm going to be a little more sneakier, you know what I mean? So yeah, I'm going to go down a little bit. But honestly, I think, I think I think on the sniping side of the world, you know, the 338 is still there's a lot of value to that. I know they're playing with the normas and in the different cows and they're changing all that, trying to get out there. And, you know, they on paper at 1500 meters, the 338 Norma Mag was better than the Lapu mag. And this, you know, it's like, okay, it's still a good caliber and, and it's going to do a lot. But I'm still I mean, I'm a308 fan and still in a lot of ways, I grew up with it. The six five variants are better. I've my first 260 I made in 2001. It's matter of fact, it's sitting right here my yeah it's my gap headhunter was a rifle I spec from precision is this 260. I like the 260. Um you know especially if you hand load for it but the two sixties money the problem with the 260 was guys loading them long into the lands and they and they and they grab the land and pull the bullet out. Which is what the six five corrected by making the case just that little tiny bit shorter.
Frank Galli: You know.
Harry: Is it a steeper shoulder as well?
Frank Galli: Yeah, a little bit.
Frank Galli: It's a little different. I mean, it's it's still a good design that Creedmoor the one I'm not a fan of that I know a lot of people love. It's the six five by 47. I know people love it. It's a good, accurate cartridge. But it's it's it's muzzle velocities down and it's just enough to be annoying. I think the six by 47 is the better way of going with a 47 case.
Frank Galli: So I would I would leapfrog a65 by 47 and go straight to a six by 47.
Harry: Right. So you still pick the 6.5. Yeah. Yeah.
Frank Galli: A Creedmoor would a one 3143. Something like that. I'm a happy camper. I mean, honestly, if I could kind of like if I could build it, I would say I want to. I want a65 Creedmoor. What, a 136 grain CNR, you know, or. Skinner But how do you guys want to say it there? But. Yeah, I'm American. We, we mess things up. But anyway, I would do, I would like a 136 grain load in a six Creedmoor. That would be my, my dream kind of off the shelf and then with my I rifles and then I want a suppressor on it or a moderator.
Harry: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, hold a razor. Yeah, yeah. I think suppressor sounds cooler. Like I grew up with Hollywood films, so. Yeah. Yeah.
Frank Galli: Me too. I want a can on it.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah. Well, there we go. Very good. Six, five, Creedmoor. One, three, six. Grind load. Brilliant. I have a second question. We sort of covered this a little bit, but back to the fundamentals for a minute. Other than the fundamentals you covered, which are our in regard to the shooter themselves, what's the next biggest factor in ensuring consistency and accuracy.
Frank Galli: Like next to taking the person away.
Harry: Take the person away. So we've we've assuming good trigger control, assuming good breathing, good habits and everything is nicely bedded in and that that part of it is fine. What's the next biggest factor that to to ensure consistency.
Frank Galli: The two things I look at are barrel and scope. Your barrel is going to be your biggest factor in overall. And then because I look at it two ways, precision and accuracy, right? So precision is the group size and that's us in the fundamentals of marksmanship. Accuracy is hitting the target at distance and doing an X ring. You know, I got a 600 meter target. I want to get in the x. Well, you have to have your ability to interpret your data correctly to hit that X. Sure. That means your scope has to be correct to hit the X. So if I say I need, you know, 3.2 mils to hit that 600 and my scopes only given me 3.0 or it's going to three, four or some weird number. I'm not going to hit my X.
Frank Galli: So, you know, precision comes from the fundamentals of marksmanship. Accuracy comes from your ability to interpret data. Your rifle system has a bearing on both.
Frank Galli: You know, so bad ammo, good ammo, barrel scope, all has that bearing. But to me, the two biggest factors are put your money in the barrel, put your money in the scope, and then get a good trigger. And then after that, stocks are a personal preference. You know, make sure it's cleared and doing, like you said. Correct. But it doesn't matter if it's a hunting stock, a chassis, if it's if it's if it's quality and and done correctly, that's a personal preference. That's that's your red car. Blue car. You know, that's a pickup truck. But the other stuff is is going to be more important.
Harry: Okay. Very good. Excellent. Well, there we are. This money and the power money in this scope makes a lot of sense. So moving slightly on to more kind of more about you and your personal interests and what you've done in the industry. You're obviously a really high profile character and sniper site is a huge website. You have a lot of influence and you've talked about in one of your articles your passion for getting young shooters into the sport and how important that is. Well, a couple of questions, I guess. What's the best way to do that in your opinion? And do you think enough is being done about that to really build the industry for the future?
Frank Galli: I no, not enough is being done. But what is being done is usually really good. You know, those those those incidents you do hear about the Mary Beth Olson's and, you know, the different people who who've become public about it. Those are great success stories. But number one is don't overcome them. Less is better with kids. To start them out, you don't have to give them. You know, when I grew up, it used to be funny to give somebody the biggest gun they can not not handle and watch them fall down.
Harry: Yeah, yeah.
Frank Galli: Don't do that. You know, it's it may be funny to throw your kid in the water and let them sink or swim with firearms. Not as much. So I like I like starting them with the 20 twos. I think they should be better leagues. The leagues should be more focused on kids in a way. I like the 2222 stuff is fantastic. I like suppressors for kids.
Frank Galli: MODERATOR Suppress them, you know, whatever you have to do because the sound is our biggest issue. The noise, you know, even consider double ering some of the kids to start out with. I can tell you I'm deaf as a stump on half my head you know. Yeah so double ear but that helps manage recoil with people is to keep the sound down then patience right but don't kids are quick kids will move up fast so don't shortchange a kid's learning.
Frank Galli: Just be patient with them and understand their size, the weights and what you're putting in their hand.
Frank Galli: You know, recognize that part of it, but don't. Don't limit it. Don't be like, oh, my kid's only going to shoot 100 meter, put them to a grand. Yeah, you know, let them go out there and experience it. The more experience they give them, the better put them in alternate positions. Kids are bendy.
Harry: They won't work. Sure.
Frank Galli: You know, and and but get them get them with the fun, you know, you don't want to give them the bad habits. The sooner you can get them with the fundamentals, the better you're off you're going to be. So you're not breaking bad habits down down the road, which is why I like the 22 stuff because it's not so recoil intensive.
Frank Galli: Recoil is what creates our bad habits really. And so, you know, that's our flinch factor is that's that's our brain trying to be defensive that our brain does not like the idea of a controlled explosion. Three inches in front of our nose.
Harry: Whatever. Yeah, why not?
Frank Galli: Right. Why wouldn't it? You know, it's like, wait a minute, you don't like a bang is going off there. So you have to do things to kind of let the brain know it's okay.
Frank Galli: And the sooner you can do that, the better off you are, because that is what creates the bad habits. But I think the 20 twos should be I mean, there's people who ask me about creating series and matches and different things. Yeah. And lately my advice is, well, why wouldn't you do a 22 first and create because the average range in the US I don't know about you guys is 200 yards.
Frank Galli: A 200 yard competition for a 22 is great. I know my voodoo 22, my 200 yard data is the same as my six five Creedmoor at 1000.
Frank Galli: It's identical wind and everything. Okay, it's almost the same wind. Hold, you know what I mean? It's like the fin accuracy. Guys have the 22 scalable stuff over there, but they have programs that scale the data.
Harry: Right. And well, I said another great way to teach the fundamentals then.
Frank Galli: Yes.
Harry: And if you're there and I'm young, I mean, it's like it's like learning any skill. If you start young enough, you've got far more chance of mastering it. I think it makes a lot of sense as well about silencing the rifle. I fired 20 twos when I was younger because we were very lucky in my school where I had a 22 range hidden away somewhere in the bushes, like a throwback to World War Two, I'm sure. And and we were in there banging away. Banging. But it was loud, you know, and it was like an echoey room. And it never occurred to me. But you're absolutely right, there is like a natural flinch, and then you brace the next one and then it's bang and it's loud. And you sort of. I guess that puts a lot of people off.
Frank Galli: Yeah, it does. The sound is our is our biggest deal. So if you can mitigate the sound a little bit, you'll you'll you'll create a better shooter.
Frank Galli: And which is why the dry fireworks. Because you're not influenced by recoil, right?
Harry: You've got to have a bit more patience to dry fire, though. I think a bit more maturity. Right.
Frank Galli: Well, do do a 40 round dry fire. Just do 40 perfect rounds.
Frank Galli: So I mean, even they have the training aids now where you can put the the sign up. I just talked to the one guy that Jeremy Swanee and Swanee is there in the U.S. They sell the, um, the dry fire kits that has a poster board with targets on it. Then you put the, the step down on the caps, the scope cap with the reducer.
Frank Galli: And, and you can focus your precision rifle scope at 11 feet.
Frank Galli: And then you can focus in on target an image, a picture of a target, you know, range. And you could practice.
Harry: Oh, wow.
Frank Galli: And it's it's S.W. A and NY symphonies. And he sells them.
Harry: Yep. Very good. We'll have to speak to. Actually, I think Chad's introduced us to Sweeney as well. There you go. Cool. Yeah, we'll get him on. We've covered, obviously, the fundamentals we've covered. There's one little thing we haven't covered. Right. Maybe we could do this in in in like, overview, because I've seen this in your videos a lot, which is your WTF approach. So we're skipping back a little bit in the podcast because we sort of covered this in the beginning. Could you cover that for anybody who's listening, who hasn't heard it before?
Frank Galli: Yeah. My, my, my mantra for shooting a precision rifle is W2 f k and this is this is all it takes to shoot a target at long range. K the W is the wind because like for me, even when I'm driving out to the range, we have a lot of wind out here. I'm out west in Colorado. We have wind flags on our highways.
Frank Galli: Because the wind will knock tractor trailers over.
Frank Galli: And so you'll always read not so much Colorado, but Montana or Wyoming, right over the border. You'll always see there'll be a windstorm comes through and six tractor trailers were knocked over in one gust. So and so wind is my number one. Right. Wind is the great equalizer. It's all about the wind.
Frank Galli: So W is number one, it's the first thing you think about as soon as you're walking out to the range. I'm looking at the wind. So that's one. Then T is your target. What is the trajectory? The range, right? The wind. What is it? What are you going to do? Are you going to hold? You're going to dial. Then you got the the target, your range. So what are you going to do to engage that? You're going to hold, you're going to dial. So the wind is six miles an hour. Okay, cool. And we go and we'll get into it in another podcast. But it's I know I have a six mile an hour gun with a65 creed, so I got a six mile an hour gun. A six mile an hour gun at 600 yards means it's 6/10 of a mil. So I'm good done. So I got that an elevation target. So the T target, it's a 600 yard target. Okay. I need 3.2 miles to hit that target. Good. Got that. Well, then the F is the fundamentals of marksmanship.
Harry: Yeah, that's.
Frank Galli: Right. That's that's the checklist you put through your head. It's basically in that order. And I and I put the wind first because the wind is the wildcat. It's something you should think about the most. If you have a ballistic computer and you trued it, if you know your dope because you shot it before your elevation is a given. Yeah, you already know what your elevation is. You just have to match the numbers up, right? 600 to 6. That's 3.2 for me, you know. Well, wind is the wildcat. What's the wind doing is gusting, it's changing, it's doing that. So I have to put more thought into the wind. Then in order to do that, I have a plan. My win call is is put in my brain. I got a win call. I know my elevation at Target is 3.2 mils, so I'm holding on the target with my wind call. Now it should be that subconscious. No mind. I talk Tom Cruise all the time. Last Samurai.
Frank Galli: No mind, right? No mine. The fundamentals of marksmanship. So now I'm going to get in there. I've practiced. I dry fire. I don't have to overthink them because they're ingrained.
Frank Galli: So now I can just focus on putting the radical on the target where it needs to be. Watching my bullet to the target, I'm driving the rifle through recoil. I'm following that bullet through the scope to the target. In my mind's eye, I'm picturing the trajectory, okay? And I'm looking for it and I find it. So then I follow it to the target and I either hit and I'm good or I missed. And I have to make a follow up. If I missed, I want to see where I splashed on the radical. I just want to slide the scope over to that point. Okay. You know, I held 0.6 mil. What I hit at the one mil marker actually might be more than that, but I hit at the 1.2 mil mark is the win. So now I just slide the 1.2 into the middle of the target and send the following round. It should be 3 to 5 seconds. Is your honeymoon okay? I got 3 to 5 seconds to make that correction right. I have to be on my game to do it in 3 to 5 seconds, you know. And so that's that's why. So I'm not cluttering my mind. I'm wtf. What's the wind? What am I going to do about it? What's the target distance or trajectory? And then fundamentals.
Harry: On that 3 to 5 seconds. That's because the wind is going to change. Right. Or or something else. Some other factor is going to shift.
Frank Galli: Yeah. You shot and you missed the guy and he heard the crack and he went, What was that? And now.
Harry: He knows. I gotcha.
Frank Galli: You know, it's going to take about 3 to 5 seconds for it to register. He just got shot at.
Harry: Gotcha. Right? Yes. Yes.
Frank Galli: You know, so let's slide the radical over and send a follow up shot.
Harry: Yeah. You know.
Frank Galli: Or if it's that high a priority in me and you were working as a team, I could say, Harry, I got 0.6 mil on Oak. Frank I'm on my you instead of you. Get in a spotting scope. Let's give you rifle. Rifle.
Frank Galli: And then I go, all right, I'm 0.6. I fire, but I need that 1.2. Well, you see it and see it's 1.2. You slide your article over and just shoot before I've even run the bolt, that next round went down range. Now I have talking and rifles and not a spotter shooter dialogue.
Frank Galli: If it's that big of a if it's that important, maybe I need to do that.
Harry: To rifles on the target. That's interesting. That's cool. Yeah.
Frank Galli: Well, because there's two of us. Why do I got to take why am I taking a rifle out of my buddy's hand and giving him a spotting scope?
Harry: For sure? Yeah, for sure.
Frank Galli: Well, right.
Harry: Yeah, absolutely.
Frank Galli: It's got a 25 power scope. I'm not going to be spotting over 25 anyway.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah. It's all about getting that target.
Frank Galli: Yeah.
Harry: You know how I mean. Ranges look like we're shooting further and further and further get more and more accurate. And obviously all the equipment is being developed and refined so that we can get more accurate long distances. Like it's become almost like the norm to shoot 1000 yards and then then it will be the norm to shoot at 2000 and so on. Are you updating your own? Are you pushing your limits like that? You're trying to reach out further, or are you refining within that space? How are you personally developing?
Frank Galli: Oh, we're going farther. I'm going farther. And my my range, my private range that I use here in Colorado is I have targets every 100 yards to a mile.
Frank Galli: And I could back up to 28. Yeah. We it's a bucket list for people to shoot a mile now.
Frank Galli: So my main range, the main part of it that's in front of you goes to 1425.
Frank Galli: So we work to shoot everybody to that distance.
Frank Galli: If the range doesn't have the ability to go beyond a thousand, of course then we work within that low that that space. But I shoot, I shoot a mile all the time, you know, and like we're at the end of my class. I do like a one hour open shoot where I let you shoot any target on my range. And if your gun is capable, including a65 creed.
Frank Galli: In Colorado, a65 creed will hit a mile. No problem.
Harry: Really. Okay.
Frank Galli: Yeah, we're 20 about 20 mils. 20 mils to a mile on my range will usually get you pretty darn close anywhere from 18 to 21, depending on the rifle. So we can get you guys in the ballpark. But I have. Yeah. Ehlers. Ehlers, to me, there's, there's two elements at LR. One, it's all about the bullet. The bullet really, really matters in how you push it. Yeah. To the scope again because you got to reach it.
Frank Galli: You know, now the problem I see is that guys make these really ridiculous looking rifles.
Harry: Yeah, yeah.
Frank Galli: And then they can't get any fundamentals behind them where your fundamentals should be more important in LR. Yeah. And like, I go to King of Two Mile. I was.
Harry: Going to say.
Frank Galli: I don't shoot it. I film it because it always conflicts with my schedule and I'm not particularly a big fan of the format.
Frank Galli: But I go to, to, to be part of that and I see people I know and talk, you know, and I want to be there. But if you watch the majority of people shoot.
Frank Galli: There are the the shooter is so far out of whack, it's it's a miracle that they could do anything. I'll give you a great example. I watched the guy and I'm filming him, and it was he had been to every king of two mile.
Frank Galli: And he self makes everything. The calibers, even his own wildcat. Super nice. Okay.
Harry: Yeah, yeah.
Frank Galli: Super nice guy. Very low budget. You know, kind of a one man, one man guy, you know?
Frank Galli: Well, last year the last year I went I didn't go last year because it conflicted with my my travels. He made it to the finale to the he was one of the final ten shooters. So and his fundamentals were so bad. I watched I watched them pulling the rifle over every shot. He was counting the rifle because his bipod was loose and he was and he was using some things. And I wanted to tell him, but I couldn't it wasn't my place to go up and speak to him.
Frank Galli: And I'm watching them and the guys are calling him like, you need more wind. You need more wind. It's like, no, you need to, you need to take the kanth out of your rifle because as, as you pull the, as you run the ball with a lot of these, especially if you've got any kind of resistance on the bolt.
Frank Galli: If your bipod is loose, you pull the rifle over.
Frank Galli: Yeah. And it takes a little while for people to notice it.
Frank Galli: And so this is what happened. So to me, I think. That you have to look at the fundamental setup of how you build that rifle to create a platform that's either going to be the EF class kind of ones that you see with a really wide bipod in the really light triggers. But then the taco units on the front, the Charlie Tariq unit, so you can get your cheek weld. I mean, you see a ton of people shooting King of two mile with their cheek, not even touching the rifle because they can't.
Harry: Yeah. Because it's such a some of the rifles that you said before they look insane. I saw some guy had like an integrated or like monolithic silencer type set up where the silence was like this huge long tube, like a drainage pipe all the way back to the to the where you where the cheek should be. Yeah. I mean, it was just like an apparatus.
Frank Galli: They do. It's an engineering endeavor.
Harry: Yeah, in a way.
Frank Galli: You know what I mean? It's as close to bench rest as you can get a person kind of behind the rifle. But it is doing so much more because think about this. They're usually in a kind of two mile situation here. What I've noticed is they're pretty consistent to 25 Hunter.
Frank Galli: Even though they shoot farther, where where does the consistency fall? Well, the consistency falls off at 2500 meter. Right. Well. That's making everything inside 2500 that much more capable of being hit.
Harry: Of course.
Frank Galli: So if we push out to 4000, well, then 2500 is going to then become 28. Yeah, sure. And when they push the 528, it's going to be 32.
Frank Galli: Is that.
Harry: Informing. Is the research they're doing there and the discoveries they're making, is that informing, you know, ballistics research elsewhere? Are people picking up on that and learning from what they're doing?
Frank Galli: Yes, totally. And that's and that's the benefit of that, which I agree with. But my problem is, from a marksmanship standpoint, it's terrible example. Right. And you'll get guys go, well, you know, look at this guy, he's doing everything fundamentally wrong, but he won. It's like.
Frank Galli: But that's not a great example. You know, that's the exception, not the rule. That's the buzz. He, you know, you're launching a 400 grain bullet at 3000 feet per second. Eventually everything's going to get hit. But it doesn't it's not it's not being hit in a way. I would hold up as an example of what to do.
Harry: No, no, absolutely. Well, apart from anything else, you can't move around with those giant guns. It's not like you're mobile, you know, and you can go and sniping.
Frank Galli: Is crew served? I mean, if you think about it, it is a cruise served endeavour, especially when you get into the into the bigger calibers. True. Shoot, you're shooting a cruise serve weapon.
Harry: True. Yes. Not far from artillery. Really, is it?
Frank Galli: Right. A 50 cal is a crew surf weapon. A machine gun is a crew serve weapon. You know, if you're going into these bigger calibers, you know, you're you're engaged in a crew, served in Endeavor.
Frank Galli: And so that's why I think we should be changing sort of the fundamental way of doing that. Like honestly with LR like the one example I gave, I would be creating a mount. Like Kate has like a 50 Cal, an MTU mount, and then they have like the solo unit. I would be creating a mount to put my rifle in. Right. That was big, stupid and heavy, probably. And then I would create an off sighting system. If I. If I want to shoot a rifle like LR, I would probably create something slightly different, more of a solo mount. You know, in a match, if they're going to limit you now, if it's military. Honestly, to me, it's a bear bat. It's always been the people I've talked to who've always done it. It's. It's a beer bat. Hey, I bet I can hit that guy, but you can't, you know? Because there's no danger if somebody is 2000 yards away from me. You're not in any danger? No. And honestly, I have. I have a radio.
Frank Galli: Hopefully I could use it, you know, and I'd much rather. And it's ten times cooler to drop a bomb.
Harry: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Right.
Frank Galli: But there is situations where maybe. Maybe somebody's being harassed there. Situations of harassing fire, and now you can put harassing fire back on that person.
Frank Galli: So knowing them. But you're understanding and talking to a guy who did exactly that as soon as he started harassing that gunner, a gunner was a machine gunner like a PKM. We're shooting at a village.
Frank Galli: Off to the side, within view of the PKM was a team.
Frank Galli: Passing fire shuts that gunner down.
Frank Galli: But. Okay, that's cool. I didn't kill the guy or do anything like that, but I gave him harassing fire. It still works, but in that context I get it. But if I was going to be doing something like King of Two Mile ish, yeah. I would be trying to build. Something that was more offset. So even if I'm not going to be behind the rifle and I'm going to hold the rifle, I especially if they're going to let me use a $1,000 rest.
Frank Galli: I would create a different.
Frank Galli: Or have classes and say, here's a light gun class, here's a heavy gun class, here's an unlimited class where a guy can roll a car up.
Harry: Yeah, yeah. I guess they're pioneering, aren't they? Like because they're reaching literally reaching out to distances that are like you're feeling you. It's almost like the Wild West. That's the vibe I get from it. When I look at the.
Frank Galli: Difference, the bench press model, to me it's more of a bench press model than a tactical practical model.
Frank Galli: But with like Eduardo, he wants the practical that comes out of it to build something for the military.
Harry: Yeah, well.
Frank Galli: That practical is going to be built in a 1500 meter package and 1500 meter package will be plenty capable to 25. Right. In that racing sense.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah. It's not going to be pinpoint accurate.
Frank Galli: The problem is, is you get guys selling to the military with what they're claiming is a 2000 meter solution. That's not really practical. Like if you go back to them shooting the 300 eights at a mile. Yeah, that was a selling point. And it's like, why would I take a 308 and turn it into a bad nine. Mm.
Harry: Yeah for sure.
Frank Galli: If you're, if I'm selling you on the idea that you're 300, it's going to do something to somebody at a mile. I'm the biggest liar on the planet. If I'm being serious, I can goof and say, Hey, man, you can do it. You might get close and given enough time and opportunity, something might get hit, but you're going to hit it with the same rate. You're going to hit it in a place you can't predict with the same amount of force of a nine millimeter at 100 yards.
Harry: Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah.
Frank Galli: If you're calling it harassing fire. Okay.
Harry: Yeah, sure.
Frank Galli: You're telling.
Harry: Me if.
Frank Galli: It's not effective fire by any means, if you're trying to sell somebody that you can sell, you can give them effective fire with a308 at a mile. They're lying.
Frank Galli: Okay. Now you're going to tell them and say, listen, I'll show you how to give some harassing fire and maybe, you know, you might.
Harry: Contract them and.
Frank Galli: They. Right. But that's that's I have a problem with that.
Harry: Do you think we'll be we'll reach those further distances with accuracy, with different calibers? Is that where the innovation is going to come from?
Frank Galli: Yeah, I think 2000 is is capable with, you know, first round I call in it.
Frank Galli: I think we can take the three round mantra, you know, no more than three rounds out of target, first round hit, one shot, one kill. I think we'll be able to get it to 2000 meters.
Frank Galli: With a it's going to be something as big as a 50 cal, you know what I mean? We're probably going to have to fine tune the system a little bit.
Harry: Yeah, but it's doable. Yeah. What is the record now? You know, I remember hearing a while ago it was like two, two k's or just under two, just under two k's.
Frank Galli: I've seen 23 done with the three shots.
Frank Galli: David Tubbs, son in law, did it beyond 2000.
Frank Galli: I don't know where they currently stand because there's so many events that will give them a score. Yeah, I don't I don't know where they are, but I do like the idea of the, you know, lay down, you got three shots, wait 4 hours, you got three more. That's your try. That is smart. That is super.
Harry: So it's. Sorry. Sorry to cut you off, Frank.
Frank Galli: Yeah, I was going to say it's bullet technology, man. Yeah. The cider in that is the bullet.
Harry: Is the bullet? Yeah, that's what I was kind of asking. There was exactly that. Yeah. Is it is it going to come down to developments in the bullet? Because like like you said earlier, a lot of technology, you have a big war like World War Two. Suddenly loads of stuff gets developed, you know, because it's it's essential. And then you have Vietnam, it loads of stuff gets developed and then it's like you get stuck with that stuff for a long time. And now you're seeing people like wild catting rounds, you know, and someone's going to come up with this is the sense I get someone's going to come up with a hugely efficient caliber at that range. We just don't know what it is yet. Or maybe we do, but it needs a tweak or something.
Frank Galli: It's just a tweak. I think it's going to be between that 375 and 416 and it's going to get that casing tweak. It's probably going to be not so much definitely with like a cutting edge or a flat line. It's going to be that. But then it's going to be a case tweak where they're going to either do TAVE at TUB and straighten the case.
Harry: Right or.
Frank Galli: Something like that. That like a tub system would probably be the smart way to go because that's about as man portable as you're going to get.
Frank Galli: And so and still because he's using that smaller bolt face.
Frank Galli: And so if you did like a like a tub system in a step down I 50.
Frank Galli: You'd probably land on the right combination in some kind of 375 416 variant.
Harry: Right. Would you test that. Would you go and is you tempted to test that.
Frank Galli: I'm a little busted right now on my shoulder. So the big guns really hurt me because I kind of messed with my neck and shoulder. But yeah, I would totally shoot that.
Harry: But yeah.
Frank Galli: You know, it's definitely doable.
Harry: I mean, exciting.
Frank Galli: It's like it really is what it's going to land.
Harry: Yeah. So taking it in a step back and or the way I generally like to wrap up these chats is to get an idea of your personal ethos. And the way we do that is we ask, What are your words to live by? I can't remember if I even prepped you about this before the call, so.
Frank Galli: Oh, no, you did. That's a that's a that's a tough one. My words my words to my words to live by would be wtf.
Frank Galli: Cool. All the way across the board though. Like from like reading. Like I think like to me it'd be like the forget about it if you ever watched the, you know, something like Donnie Brasco where they ask about what is forget forget about it, forget about it. Could be everything, man. It could be it could be a little of this. A little of that. You know, forget about it could be good, forget about it could be bad to me. WTF could be the good, wtf could be the bad. So I'm a I'm a WTF guy kind of like well what the hell did you do that for? Why the hell are you doing? You know? Wow, that's really cool. Like what the frig. That is excellent, you know.
Harry: Yeah yeah.
Frank Galli: When trajectory and the fundamentals of marksmanship.
Harry: Yeah absolutely. That's. That's a mantra man. It's going in.
Frank Galli: Yeah.
Harry: That would be good.
Frank Galli: Anyway, that would be my unfiltered like little cadence that that's what repeats in my head. WTF.
Harry: Awesome, awesome. And finally, this goes without saying I'm sure, but where can people find you online? If you know where you want them to find you, how can they find you in your and your website?
Frank Galli: Sure. It's us snipershide.com And then I have the Everyday Sniper podcast and also I kind of didn't mention much, but I do have a book coming out on Amazon. If you put my name in or whatever they are to Amazon, I have a precision rifle book with a little bit of history, kind of like this podcast, but I have this variant of the book coming out within the next 1530 days. I think the Kindle is even in pre-order, but if you go on Amazon and put in Frank Galli, my, my, my book will come right up.
Harry: What is it called?
Frank Galli: Precision marksmanship and long range shooting for the Marine Sniper. Something like that.
Harry: Yeah. Yeah.
Frank Galli: It's over there. I can't read it from this far.
Harry: No worries. Well, I'll put all those links in the notes. And if the, if the book is visible on Amazon, we'll link it.
Frank Galli: Yeah, on Amazon. I think it's practical marksmanship. Practical cool. Yeah, I'm a practical guy.
Harry: You've been listening to the Tier one podcast brought to you by Tier one, makers of the world's finest rifle accessories. Find out more at Tier one U.S.A. and tune in for more great insights on the next episode.